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	<title>Comments on: More on winning—one can grow very thin eating one’s threats</title>
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		<title>By: Norm Pattis</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-339</link>
		<dc:creator>Norm Pattis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 17:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-339</guid>
		<description>There ain&#039;t a whole lot of magic here. Help!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There ain&#8217;t a whole lot of magic here. Help!</p>
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		<title>By: gerryspence</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-316</link>
		<dc:creator>gerryspence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-316</guid>
		<description>Norm, if this were my case I would call on you for your magic.  This is a case where the client is obviously in need of more than legal help.  Some psychodrama might be in order.  But in the end, if he were my client you would have an answer that is both true and humane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norm, if this were my case I would call on you for your magic.  This is a case where the client is obviously in need of more than legal help.  Some psychodrama might be in order.  But in the end, if he were my client you would have an answer that is both true and humane.</p>
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		<title>By: Norm Pattis</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-307</link>
		<dc:creator>Norm Pattis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-307</guid>
		<description>Gerry:

How do you win this one?

Client is in possession of child pornography. The Government has lawfully obtained his computer and a search reflects many images of items depicting graphic acts with preschoolers. The Government&#039;s only offer is more time than the client can face. Forensic analysis has been done. We know what the pictures are and where they came from. Client lives along.

We could use some help on this one.

Norm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerry:</p>
<p>How do you win this one?</p>
<p>Client is in possession of child pornography. The Government has lawfully obtained his computer and a search reflects many images of items depicting graphic acts with preschoolers. The Government&#8217;s only offer is more time than the client can face. Forensic analysis has been done. We know what the pictures are and where they came from. Client lives along.</p>
<p>We could use some help on this one.</p>
<p>Norm</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-288</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 03:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-288</guid>
		<description>Mark,

I did find Gerry&#039;s expression aimed at the prosecutor during the objections during closing arguments to be frightening.   I do not know if in fact Gerry was angry at the prosecutor when he objected to Gerry&#039;s closing 24 times.  But each time the prosecutor was overruled, he got more and more frantic.  He became out of control in his objections.  They did become silly and a source of amusement for the entire courtroom.  In particular when Gerry said how he didn&#039;t object to the prosecutor&#039;s closing and hoped he would receive same courtesy . . . bang, objection.  It was as if Gerry put the fishing line out that, and he bit.  Gerry&#039;s story was not lost at all during the pauses the objections brought and in fact, highlighted most of Gerry&#039;s points.   Did Gerry threaten and dare the prosecutor to object again with his sideways looks?  Did the prosecutor just get desperate with his objections or was this the reaction of frightened counsel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>I did find Gerry&#8217;s expression aimed at the prosecutor during the objections during closing arguments to be frightening.   I do not know if in fact Gerry was angry at the prosecutor when he objected to Gerry&#8217;s closing 24 times.  But each time the prosecutor was overruled, he got more and more frantic.  He became out of control in his objections.  They did become silly and a source of amusement for the entire courtroom.  In particular when Gerry said how he didn&#8217;t object to the prosecutor&#8217;s closing and hoped he would receive same courtesy . . . bang, objection.  It was as if Gerry put the fishing line out that, and he bit.  Gerry&#8217;s story was not lost at all during the pauses the objections brought and in fact, highlighted most of Gerry&#8217;s points.   Did Gerry threaten and dare the prosecutor to object again with his sideways looks?  Did the prosecutor just get desperate with his objections or was this the reaction of frightened counsel?</p>
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		<title>By: confounded</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>confounded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-279</guid>
		<description>Threatening one&#039;s opponent is a very weak legal strategy and it is also a weak strategy in personal dealings.  Even in cases where the law requires demand or notice prior to litigation, beware of framing the notice or demand as a threat.  

When the idea comes to me (through my own thought process or that of my client or co counsel to issue a threat, I ask myself why are we willing to threaten but unwilling to act?  If there is a reason not to act--it usually applies as a reason not to threaten.  If there is no reason to withhold the threat, then there usually is no reason against simply acting without the useless act of threatening.  

But for the threat of the French and, we would have seen them as valiant athletes who gave their best effort and worthy of respect.  Because they threatened, we saw them as idiots and big losers and we did not like them.  

The same dynamic applies in litigation and in life.  

Excellent example, Gerry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Threatening one&#8217;s opponent is a very weak legal strategy and it is also a weak strategy in personal dealings.  Even in cases where the law requires demand or notice prior to litigation, beware of framing the notice or demand as a threat.  </p>
<p>When the idea comes to me (through my own thought process or that of my client or co counsel to issue a threat, I ask myself why are we willing to threaten but unwilling to act?  If there is a reason not to act&#8211;it usually applies as a reason not to threaten.  If there is no reason to withhold the threat, then there usually is no reason against simply acting without the useless act of threatening.  </p>
<p>But for the threat of the French and, we would have seen them as valiant athletes who gave their best effort and worthy of respect.  Because they threatened, we saw them as idiots and big losers and we did not like them.  </p>
<p>The same dynamic applies in litigation and in life.  </p>
<p>Excellent example, Gerry.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-276</guid>
		<description>George / Cheryl -

I didn&#039;t find Gerry&#039;s expressions towards the prosecutor in closings to be angry or intimidating.  They were mostly bemusement - and also thereby deflecting the &quot;badness&quot; intended to be assigned by the objection.  Gerry did not lose the apparent high-ground despite the earnest objections - Gerry has a phenomenal ability to project a more complex understanding of the world than simple bad/evil - and to integrate the prosecutor&#039;s projection of badness into a larger viewpoint that effectively dissolves the idea of badness.

I don&#039; t know quite how that played out with the jurors - and would be fascinating to know - if they revealed any of that.  It seemed to me that some of them were truly ambivalent about the outcome from the video interviews we saw online.  

How many thought Feiger did nothing wrong?
How many thought he did do something wrong, but that the prove was not airtight?

How many concurred with the governmental abuse ideas or were persuaded that the decisions were made locally?

How solid is the basis of the confidence Gerry expresses that the Justice department was pursuing a political end with this case - as opposed to the &quot;highly fair&quot; judgements the government says they made at the local level, etc.???

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George / Cheryl -</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t find Gerry&#8217;s expressions towards the prosecutor in closings to be angry or intimidating.  They were mostly bemusement &#8211; and also thereby deflecting the &#8220;badness&#8221; intended to be assigned by the objection.  Gerry did not lose the apparent high-ground despite the earnest objections &#8211; Gerry has a phenomenal ability to project a more complex understanding of the world than simple bad/evil &#8211; and to integrate the prosecutor&#8217;s projection of badness into a larger viewpoint that effectively dissolves the idea of badness.</p>
<p>I don&#8217; t know quite how that played out with the jurors &#8211; and would be fascinating to know &#8211; if they revealed any of that.  It seemed to me that some of them were truly ambivalent about the outcome from the video interviews we saw online.  </p>
<p>How many thought Feiger did nothing wrong?<br />
How many thought he did do something wrong, but that the prove was not airtight?</p>
<p>How many concurred with the governmental abuse ideas or were persuaded that the decisions were made locally?</p>
<p>How solid is the basis of the confidence Gerry expresses that the Justice department was pursuing a political end with this case &#8211; as opposed to the &#8220;highly fair&#8221; judgements the government says they made at the local level, etc.???</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: george harrington</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>george harrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-275</guid>
		<description>I may think that the Fieger trial was a greater monument to preparation than you do even.
     Time and time again, begining at opening and all the way through closing you  intentionally, I believe, drew objections from the prosecution and even the judge leaving yourself as, in the eyes of the jury as the only person who wanted evidence to be admitted. Over time, after the specifics of an arguement have dimmed in the jurors memory the
impression stays with them as they go in to deliberate.
     I&#039;m guessing that it was intentional for the reason that as you made the statement, either in arguement or cross-exam, it was on it&#039;s face objectionable and an irresistable target to someone in the heat of battle but you always, always always had a great response. It left me looking with wonder at someone who had so carefully fashioned his defence That he was forcing the other side and the judge to do a lot of things that looked really bad to a jury.
     In opening being the first to show the jury the statute( jury&#039;s gratefull 1st real meat) and arguing that Fieger actions did not violate the statute, ( exactly opposit of what the prosecution had gotten the judge to rule pretrial) guarenteed brouhaha .
Prosecutors up. Judge is admonishing unbidden.
None of them looking good and all acting roles that you assigned them by your carefull choice of words.
     Or again, during the cross of the FBI agent when you wanted to make the point that he might have reverse the sequence of statements because he was excited. Your could have asked that question and had him deny it. But instead you first made it clear that he was a relatively new agent suddenly in charge of a 100 agent raid. and then asked the clearly objectionable &quot; Can you tell me
when in the history of the World a raid this large--&quot;
Prosecutor is objecting .Judge is admonishing. You are withdrawing the question only to follow with the equally objectionable, &quot;Can you tell me when in the History of the United States a raid--&quot;
Prosecutors objecting. Judge is admonishing. You are withdrawing the Question. The point is underlined by the other parties objections they are not looking good and just to unintentionnaly help you out a little more the Judge volunteers and you can&#039;t ask him When in the history of the State of Michigan a raid so large was held either&quot;
     Shakspeare&#039;s plays are a great accomplishment but atleast he was completely in charge of his characters. You assigned parts to your adversaries
and made them help you by asking objectional questions. It is just a breathtaking achievement.
     I was suprised that they had the restraint to not object when you introduced your wife to the jury during closing. But had they ( and I&#039;m sure that this must have happened in the past) I&#039;m sure you had a prepared response that reminded the jury that the trial of an individual is a very personnel thing.
     The Last, it seemed like forty minutes of the FBI agents testimony when you kept coming back to the ledger sheet of the corporations accounts- and a lot of people said that they did not know what you were doing. Finally the FBI agent took the bait and yelled &quot; Those books are cooked.&quot; I
think you must have known that he thought that and were confident that you could get him to say it.
It was all a set up for you to appear astonished that he would say such a thing and then take you time appearing to search through papers ( for you clearly,clearly never expected such a charge.) For you to appear to find the paper and ( sounding puzzeled ) say &quot; but you know that the IRS has
approved these books don&#039;t you?&quot;
     It was a stunning performance.  Having lived through it I would love to look at the transcripts and see what I missed. If you know where they might be available I would be grateful for the information.
     One more personnal obervation since I seem to be reliving the trial right now. Twenty years ago I was told the story that Gerry Spence always closes
his crimnal cases with. In that, atleast, I expected no suprises. I was wrong. Immediately before you leave the bird&#039;s fate in their hands. as you are describing how the young man is going to crush the life out of that bird you loosed a very powerfull
, from deep inside,sound that I have only heard once before in my entire life. It is the sound that James Coburn makes at the emotional climax of the movie &quot; Pat Garret and Billy Kid&quot; as he kicks
his deputy in the face to keep him from cutting off Billys trigger finger. It succeeds in making it all very personnal. If you have Blockbuster nights you might rent it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may think that the Fieger trial was a greater monument to preparation than you do even.<br />
     Time and time again, begining at opening and all the way through closing you  intentionally, I believe, drew objections from the prosecution and even the judge leaving yourself as, in the eyes of the jury as the only person who wanted evidence to be admitted. Over time, after the specifics of an arguement have dimmed in the jurors memory the<br />
impression stays with them as they go in to deliberate.<br />
     I&#8217;m guessing that it was intentional for the reason that as you made the statement, either in arguement or cross-exam, it was on it&#8217;s face objectionable and an irresistable target to someone in the heat of battle but you always, always always had a great response. It left me looking with wonder at someone who had so carefully fashioned his defence That he was forcing the other side and the judge to do a lot of things that looked really bad to a jury.<br />
     In opening being the first to show the jury the statute( jury&#8217;s gratefull 1st real meat) and arguing that Fieger actions did not violate the statute, ( exactly opposit of what the prosecution had gotten the judge to rule pretrial) guarenteed brouhaha .<br />
Prosecutors up. Judge is admonishing unbidden.<br />
None of them looking good and all acting roles that you assigned them by your carefull choice of words.<br />
     Or again, during the cross of the FBI agent when you wanted to make the point that he might have reverse the sequence of statements because he was excited. Your could have asked that question and had him deny it. But instead you first made it clear that he was a relatively new agent suddenly in charge of a 100 agent raid. and then asked the clearly objectionable &#8221; Can you tell me<br />
when in the history of the World a raid this large&#8211;&#8221;<br />
Prosecutor is objecting .Judge is admonishing. You are withdrawing the question only to follow with the equally objectionable, &#8220;Can you tell me when in the History of the United States a raid&#8211;&#8221;<br />
Prosecutors objecting. Judge is admonishing. You are withdrawing the Question. The point is underlined by the other parties objections they are not looking good and just to unintentionnaly help you out a little more the Judge volunteers and you can&#8217;t ask him When in the history of the State of Michigan a raid so large was held either&#8221;<br />
     Shakspeare&#8217;s plays are a great accomplishment but atleast he was completely in charge of his characters. You assigned parts to your adversaries<br />
and made them help you by asking objectional questions. It is just a breathtaking achievement.<br />
     I was suprised that they had the restraint to not object when you introduced your wife to the jury during closing. But had they ( and I&#8217;m sure that this must have happened in the past) I&#8217;m sure you had a prepared response that reminded the jury that the trial of an individual is a very personnel thing.<br />
     The Last, it seemed like forty minutes of the FBI agents testimony when you kept coming back to the ledger sheet of the corporations accounts- and a lot of people said that they did not know what you were doing. Finally the FBI agent took the bait and yelled &#8221; Those books are cooked.&#8221; I<br />
think you must have known that he thought that and were confident that you could get him to say it.<br />
It was all a set up for you to appear astonished that he would say such a thing and then take you time appearing to search through papers ( for you clearly,clearly never expected such a charge.) For you to appear to find the paper and ( sounding puzzeled ) say &#8221; but you know that the IRS has<br />
approved these books don&#8217;t you?&#8221;<br />
     It was a stunning performance.  Having lived through it I would love to look at the transcripts and see what I missed. If you know where they might be available I would be grateful for the information.<br />
     One more personnal obervation since I seem to be reliving the trial right now. Twenty years ago I was told the story that Gerry Spence always closes<br />
his crimnal cases with. In that, atleast, I expected no suprises. I was wrong. Immediately before you leave the bird&#8217;s fate in their hands. as you are describing how the young man is going to crush the life out of that bird you loosed a very powerfull<br />
, from deep inside,sound that I have only heard once before in my entire life. It is the sound that James Coburn makes at the emotional climax of the movie &#8221; Pat Garret and Billy Kid&#8221; as he kicks<br />
his deputy in the face to keep him from cutting off Billys trigger finger. It succeeds in making it all very personnal. If you have Blockbuster nights you might rent it</p>
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		<title>By: gerryspence</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>gerryspence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-274</guid>
		<description>Cheryl, I don&#039;t think my &quot;looks&quot; were very effective.  That &quot;green US Attorney&quot; never stopped objecting--right up to the end.  He objected twenty-four times during my close--the government&#039;s obvious strategy to disrupt and destroy my argument.  

Sometimes I would even smile at him and with a gesture suggest he object to something to which the government might well take umbrage.  And then, as if in obedient response he would.  Sometimes the jurors laughed.  

His excessive objections backfired.  He was soon seen as a lawyer who didn&#039;t want the truth to come out, who had something to hide, or who was being unfair with his opponent.  


Gerry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheryl, I don&#8217;t think my &#8220;looks&#8221; were very effective.  That &#8220;green US Attorney&#8221; never stopped objecting&#8211;right up to the end.  He objected twenty-four times during my close&#8211;the government&#8217;s obvious strategy to disrupt and destroy my argument.  </p>
<p>Sometimes I would even smile at him and with a gesture suggest he object to something to which the government might well take umbrage.  And then, as if in obedient response he would.  Sometimes the jurors laughed.  </p>
<p>His excessive objections backfired.  He was soon seen as a lawyer who didn&#8217;t want the truth to come out, who had something to hide, or who was being unfair with his opponent.  </p>
<p>Gerry</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-268</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 04:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-268</guid>
		<description>I saw your closing argument for Fieger.  To this day, I can picture your face turned to that green US Attorney as he repeatedly objected.  That look would frighten anyone it was aimed at.  It reminded me of my mother&#039;s &quot;evil eye&quot; when I was younger.  My brother and I never heard my mother raise her voice, but that one look would stop us dead in our tracks.  We knew to straighten up.  That US Attorney knew to straigten up.  It just took a couple of those looks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw your closing argument for Fieger.  To this day, I can picture your face turned to that green US Attorney as he repeatedly objected.  That look would frighten anyone it was aimed at.  It reminded me of my mother&#8217;s &#8220;evil eye&#8221; when I was younger.  My brother and I never heard my mother raise her voice, but that one look would stop us dead in our tracks.  We knew to straighten up.  That US Attorney knew to straigten up.  It just took a couple of those looks.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hood</title>
		<link>http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/more-on-winning%e2%80%94one-can-grow-very-thin-eating-one%e2%80%99s-threats/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gerryspence.wordpress.com/?p=245#comment-264</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t win in a kangaroo court -- I don&#039;t care how much preparation you do.  When a judge can decide a case in which she is a defendant in tort (despite the fact that sixteen non-conflicted judges are available and authorized by statute to hear the case), and her colleagues obligingly &#039;circle the wagons&#039; around her because they don&#039;t like it when people sue judges, it is difficult to even refer to it as a legal system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t win in a kangaroo court &#8212; I don&#8217;t care how much preparation you do.  When a judge can decide a case in which she is a defendant in tort (despite the fact that sixteen non-conflicted judges are available and authorized by statute to hear the case), and her colleagues obligingly &#8216;circle the wagons&#8217; around her because they don&#8217;t like it when people sue judges, it is difficult to even refer to it as a legal system.</p>
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